John and Charles discuss the emergence of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) by tracing its ideological roots through the Latter Rain revival, the shepherding movement, and the Jesus Movement. Charles expresses hesitation about addressing the topic due to its complexity and his desire to avoid the manipulative practices of cult leaders from his past. They explore the disconnect between their experiences in high-control religious groups and the countercultural lifestyles of early Jesus Movement leaders. Charles explains how Branhamite ideology subtly influenced other movements through shared deliverance models and authoritarian leadership, even when doctrines appeared different on the surface.
They outline how figures like Lonnie Frisbee and Bob Mumford became key bridges between the shepherding movement and the Jesus People, eventually feeding into the development of the Vineyard Movement under John Wimber. This branch adopted elements like five-fold ministry and positive confession while initially lacking the “manifested sons of God” doctrine, which later returned through other influences. John and Charles emphasize the importance of perspective—how those who suffered under these systems view their fruits as destructive, while others see them as revival. They conclude that without acknowledging the doctrinal roots and manipulative structures, these movements are prone to repeating the same harmful cycles under new branding.
00:00 Introduction
02:17 Hesitations About Discussing the Jesus Movement
03:55 The Disconnect Between Cult Survivors and the 1960s Counterculture
06:01 How Deliverance Ministry Shapes Paranoia and Demonization
08:15 Perspective Versus Indoctrination
08:35 Review of the Shepherding Movement’s Origins
09:37 Bob Mumford and Latter Rain Influence
12:14 What Was the Jesus Movement?
14:21 Lonnie Frisbee and the Shepherding Movement Connection
17:00 Chuck Smith’s Rejection of Shepherding Leaders
18:20 Comparing Cult Survivors’ Perspectives
20:08 Theological Roots: Authoritarianism, Positive Confession, and Escapism
22:25 Calvary Chapel’s Split and the Emergence of Vineyard
24:00 The Role of Full Gospel Businessmen
27:11 John Wimber’s Embrace of Shepherding Influences
30:02 Recruiting the Jesus People Through Emotional Appeal
33:32 Diverging Paths: Chuck Smith vs. John Wimber
35:16 Doctrine by Emotion vs. Doctrine by Scripture
36:58 Cult Structures Beneath Modern Revivals
38:35 Vineyard as a Faction of the Jesus Movement
39:44 Preview of the Next Episode: How the NAR Emerged
41:50 Signs of Cult Formation in Later Movements
43:12 Emotional Control and Indoctrination
44:59 The Importance of Preserving and Acknowledging Difficult History
50:32 Destructive Cycles Take Time to Manifest
52:08 Recommended Resources for Further Study
54:12 Closing Remarks and Final Warnings
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Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCG
